Today’s guests are Dave and Terry Rice, master cheese makers at Clover Creek Cheese Cellar, a farmstead cheese operation in Williamsburg, PA.
In today’s episode, Dave, Terry and I discuss:
- their travels across the USA, Canada, Argentina, Africa, and Iceland to learn about cheese and yogurt
- how the flavor of cheese varies based on the pasture where their cows graze
- where they would go next to learn from a master cheese maker
- making, storing, and eating cheese
- …and much more
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Thank you for listening.
Jennifer Dolan: 00:00 This is episode two of the terroir taste and travel podcast.
Lauriann Greene: 00:05 Hi, I’m Lauriann Greene. This is the podcast that helps you connect with the farmers who harvest your food and the artisans who prepare it, preserving tradition and culture so you may enjoy the pleasures of the table at home and abroad. It’s the terroir taste and travel podcast with my friend Jennifer Dolan.
Jennifer Dolan: 00:35 Hello and welcome to the terroir taste and travel podcast. This podcast explores the effect of terroir on taste and encourages you to eat locally on a global scale. I’m Jennifer Dolan and I believe that if you want to enjoy food at its finest, you must connect with the farmers who harvest your food and the artisans who prepare it. Preserving tradition and culture. Today my guests are Dave and Terry Rice from Clover Creek Cheese Cellar where they make artisan farmstead cheeses from the milk of their pasture raised cows. I’ll be asking Dave and Terry to share their experiences learning to make cheese with Pablo Bottura in Argentina, skyr yogurt in Iceland, how the terroir at Clover Creek farm affects the taste of their cheese and much more.
Dave Rice: 01:27 Our farm is on Clover Creek and it’s aptly named because we have lots of clovers growing on our farm. And for some reason, especially this year, we had lots of red clovers. Traditionally, we’ve seen more white clovers out there, but with all the rain we had this year we had a lot of red clovers and a lot of other grasses that are out there as well. And that does change the flavor of our milk and the flavors of our cheeses.
Jennifer Dolan: 01:51 Dave was exposed to dairy farming in Honduras and Terry spent her formative years in Tanzania. You can learn more about Dave and Terry and Clover Creek Cheese Cellar by going to www.clovercreekcheese.com. Dave and Terry, welcome to terroir taste and travel.
Dave Rice: 02:12 It’s a pleasure to be here.
Jennifer Dolan: 02:14 So, tell us a little bit about yourselves and what made you decide to purchase a farm and start making cheese.
Dave Rice: 02:22 I grew up on a dairy farm and, um, have a degree in dairy husbandry from Delaware Valley, now university, and I always wanted to be involved in dairy. And um, that has been my dream for a number of years. We were in a short term missionary assignment in Honduras, um, 30 years ago. And when we finished up there, I told Terry about my dream to farm and she said, “well, if you want to do it, we better do it now.” And so we actually found, um, a little farm near where two of my sisters live, and we both fell in love with it because it was snow-covered and just looked beautiful. That morning, we drove past and we were able to, um, rent it for two years while Terry could figure out whether or not she could survive on a farm. And it took that entire two years and one month for the farm service agency to approve us for a first time farmer loan. So, that’s how we ended up on the farm we’re at.
Jennifer Dolan: 03:21 Perfect. And Terry, you adapted after two years; all settled in well?
Terry Rice: 03:27 I had a lot to learn, but Dave said, “coming from not farming, he could teach me the way he wanted it to be done”, so I guess it worked.
Jennifer Dolan: 03:35 Perfect. Okay. And historically, so you grew up, Dave, in Honduras?
Dave Rice: 03:42 I grew up in Pennsylvania, in Bucks County, Pennsylvania. And then, once we were married, we took a short term missionary assignment in Honduras.
Jennifer Dolan: 03:49 Very nice. And years ago, you won a Slow Food (R) award to train?
Dave Rice: 03:56 Yeah, we looked that up on the trip down here. We found our photos of that trip and had great memories of it. We got a scholarship from Slow Food (R) Pittsburgh to go somewhere and learn how to make a new type of cheese. And we had just read a book, um, about a cheesemaker in Argentina named Pablo Bottura. And so we actually made a connection with him, and he set us up that we could spend three days staying at his bed and breakfast and learning how to make his different kinds of cheeses. He also had a sister that had a number of dairy farms there in the area, and he had set up a big cheese plant for his sister and her family. So we toured that as well and just had a great time seeing different um, artisan cheese makers in Argentina and learning an incredible lot from Pablo.
Jennifer Dolan: 04:39 That’s so exciting. And I also read, or heard from you when I was out visiting your farm, that you have traveled to Iceland and learned how to make skyr.
Dave Rice: 04:52 Well, we actually, our connection there was um, our daughter always wanted to go to Iceland. So for her 16th birthday we’d promised her we would take her to go. And it’s hard to get me to travel without visiting a farm or a cheese plant, so I emailed the milk cooperative in Iceland and said, is there a farm that we could stop in to visit while we’re there? And they put us in touch with a farmer and we actually got to spend an afternoon on their farm talking to them about their traditional dairying and cheese making. And they told us about skyr, and we also got to tour the COOP’s plant where they packaged milk, they made yogurt and they also made skyr. So when we came home we’re like, okay, we’ve got to figure out how to make this. And, and it was really fun learning how to make that. And I don’t think it’s quite official Icelandic skyr, but we have fun trying to make our, our take on it.
Jennifer Dolan: 05:37 And did you, did they teach you when you were there or you just picked it up by observation?
Dave Rice: 05:44 Well, we more just, um, researched it on the internet and tried different recipes and have been playing with a little bit on that. We do only raw milk cheeses, so we can’t really sell it, but we make it for ourselves and to share with friends. Delicious.
Jennifer Dolan: 05:59 So while we’re on the topic of traveling, I read on your website that you, Terry, were you born in Tanzania?
Terry Rice: 06:09 I was three months old when my parents took me for the first time. So I grew up, spent 11 years in Tanzania, East Africa, and then last December for my dad’s 81st birthday, the whole family decided that we would go back to Kenya this time because my brother is living there currently and do a family trip. So 19 of us went to Kenya and um, it was uh…a lot of memories…brought back a lot of memorie. But while we were there, Dave again said, “I need to visit something with dairy.” So we went to visit Brown’s cheese factory. Now it’s more food. They do all kinds of food, but they had a big cheese plant. Uh, we got to tour it and see how they make cheese, how they age their cheese and uh, visited their farm, saw a couple of their cows and their gardens and then they provide a meal as part of their tour that uses all the foods that they make, the cheeses as well as the vegetables. And…so, that was out under the banana leaves. It was cool. It was a really neat experience.
Jennifer Dolan: 07:11 So traveling for food is the greatest thing in the world. One of my favorite things to do.
Dave Rice: 07:17 Yeah. Or at least experiencing the food and the culture when you’re in a different place. We’ve really enjoyed that too.
Jennifer Dolan: 07:23 And now that you’ve been making cheese for a couple of years, could you taste a difference in the cheese that you make on your farm versus the cheese that you had in Iceland versus Africa?
Dave Rice: 07:39 For me, tasting is part of smelling. And, it seems like a lot of times, the smell of that area is what you taste as well. And I think that that’s true. They say you get more flavors as much through your nose as you do from your tongue and yeah. And that’s when it seems like you do get that earthiness, um, the ground, like you say, the terroir of that area is what you can really sense when you’re tasting those products.
Jennifer Dolan: 08:08 Okay. So let’s go back to your farm for a moment. Tell us about Clover Creek and your cows and what kind of cheese you’re making there.
Dave Rice: 08:20 Um, our farm is on Clover Creek and it’s aptly named because we have lots of clovers growing on our farm. And for some reason, especially this year, we had lots of red clovers. Traditionally, we’ve seen more white clovers out there, but with all the rain we had this year, we had a lot of red clovers and a lot of other grasses that are out there as well. And that does change the flavor of our milk and the flavors of our cheeses. Um, we also have a mixed herd of cattle. We have a number of different breeds. Um, our oldest son liked Jersey cattle, so we have a number of jerseys. Our daughter liked Ayershires. Our next son liked Milking Shorthorns. Our youngest son likes Brown Swiss, and our youngest daughter likes any kinds of cow. So we have all those breeds plus a lot of crossbreds and we’ve emphasized the grass production. So anytime we see a breed or a cow cattle family that looks like it’ll do well on grass, we’ll often get some of those genetics into our herd through artificial insemination. So we also have some Normandy crosses. We have um, Linebacks. We have, um, there’s a breed from France that I can never remember the name but that we bred the other year too. And so, and we also have some Monk Belly Yards. So yeah, we have a lot of different crossbreds in our herd and we think that contributes to our cheese and to the flavors that we get. And the one thing I really like about it…it really increases the butterfat and the protein in the milk that does produce a better cheese.
Jennifer Dolan: 09:41 By having different cows or just that their pasture varies?
Dave Rice: 09:46 The different breeds do have different component levels of fat and protein. And that’s one of the things we were looking at as we, we chose and continue to select our cows.
Jennifer Dolan: 09:56 Very interesting. And do you make any cheeses with the milk from just one breed?
Dave Rice: 10:02 Yeah, we have not. The easiest way is to just to put it all together and, and make a, a combined cheese. And, we make up to 15 or 16 different kinds of cheeses. Um, we do cheddar because everybody knows what cheddar is. And then we have a flavored cheddar. Um, that’s tomato base on garlic. We have a stirred cheddar with wild chanterelles or morel mushrooms in it. Um, we do an Alpine style we call Royer Mountain. Anthony does a new one this year that we’re calling Tussy Mountain that’s more raclette style, which is also a mountain cheese. Since we do live in a mountain valley, we’ve kind of done more of the mountain cheeses. Um, we do a number of farmer’s markets, so we, we do try to have a cheese to please everybody when you’re at farmer’s markets. So we also do a feta, we do a blue, um, a Gouda smoked Gouda and then we take a number of our other cheeses and do other things with them. Like we soak one and a Cabernet Sauvignon. Our aged cheddar we also, um, soak in a barley wine beer. And the guy that helped us come up with that idea came up with a cool name for that. We call it Grateful Ched because it’s a gratitude beer.
Jennifer Dolan: 11:08 That’s awesome.
Dave Rice: 11:09 I think that’s most of our varieties.
Jennifer Dolan: 11:12 That’s very interesting because we are conducting this interview right around Thanksgiving. So, to be grateful is very funny in top of that. I was fortunate enough to take a class on how to make cheese at your creamery? Would you call it a creamery? So if those of you who are listening out there want to learn how to make cheese, I highly recommend that you either go to Clover Creek or learn how make cheese at your local creamery. But, one thing I did not understand prior to taking this class was how so many different cheeses can be made from one pool of milk. So can explain that for us?
Dave Rice: 11:54 If the starting process is the same for every cheese, it involves having high quality milk and then adding cultures to it. And there are a number of different cultures you can add which will affect what type of cheese you’re making. And then the biggest thing that changes the varieties of cheese is how long you cook the curds and what temperature you take them to and how long you stir it and then what you do to those curds either before or after you form them into the cheese wheel. So all those things can very much influence what type of cheese you’re, you’re trying to make and how you’re making it. The other thing that we do…we have three different aging cellars, and those aging cellars at different temperatures also affect the final flavor of that cheese. So we keep our cheddars and our Goudas in a little warmer cheese celler to age it a little bit more quickly and get a little more flavor in there. Um, most of the flavored cheeses that we add things to, like the tomato, basil and garlic and the wild mushroom, we keep that a little bit cooler cellar so that it doesn’t age too quickly. And then over the years we’ve learned you really have to keep your blue cheese in a separate cooler or you’ll end up with a little bit of blue mold and all your cheeses. And we’re still fighting that problem of having to keep those blue molds out of our other cheeses.
Jennifer Dolan: 13:09 Oh no. Very cool. Well, not cool that you’re dealing with that problem, but very cool how the different cheeses are being made. Going back to the aging of cheeses, you mentioned the wine that you um, wash. is it a wash?
Dave Rice: 13:28 It’s…there’s a different type of, we actually, um, vacuum pack the wine with the cheese for a couple of days to get as much of that flavor into the cheese as we can. Um, the Raclette style that Anthony is making this year is actually a washed-rind cheese where he will wash the rind of the cheese every two to three days as it’s aging. And that gives you that stinky, um, orange yellowish layer on the outside that, that…really the smell is not greatly appealing, but the taste is incredible once you get it past your nose.
Jennifer Dolan: 14:03 Very cool. And do you recommend pairing these cheeses with the wine that it is washed in, or how do you pair your cheeses?
Dave Rice: 14:14 We’re not experts on that, but the one vineyard that we get our wine from…he’s very good at pairing things, so he has taken our cheeses and paired them with his wines. And, um, we also like to pair them with different foods because it’s amazing how much better the food will taste and how much better the cheese will taste as well. Um, what we really found that with is with the blue cheese. Terry and I really didn’t like blue cheese, but while we were in Argentina, um, she fed us sugar dates, right? Um, with blue cheese. And when you put those two things together, it was okay. Figs, figs, and syrup, and they were just incredibly good with, with the blue cheese.
Jennifer Dolan: 14:54 Delicious. So staying on topic with the rind. I eat the rind on cheeses. I actually enjoy the rind on cheeses. My husband always cuts off the rind until recently. He’s learning to appreciate rinds a little bit more. Can you talk to us about, um, different rinds and taste, and what is safe to eat and what should not be eaten in a rind?
Dave Rice: 15:24 Yeah. Our cheeses are out naturally rinded cheeses, so it is just the natural aging process. The rind will be a lot stronger in flavor and have more of those natural moldy flavors that you get from natural aging in a cellar, but they are perfectly safe to eat if you like that flavor. Um, a lot of people will trim it off and use it in soups or use it in a casserole where you can add, cause you get a lot more flavor from that cheese and you do from the regular cheese. So a lot of people will do that with it. Um, our cheese consultant that we worked with when we first learned how to make cheese told us at that point that he said most molds, he says all molds, on cheese are safe to eat. And he suggested that we taste it before we cut it off and throw it away. And we always said, okay, we’ll cut it off, mail it to you, you taste it and let us know whether it’s good or not because we’d rather be safe than sorry. But yeah, it is normally very safe to eat the rind unless you notice that the wax should be taken off or some cheeses are also treated with, uh, an anti mold coating and that shoud not be eaten, but it should say on the package whether it’s treated that way.
Jennifer Dolan: 16:36 Okay, great. And when you’re aging this cheese … Aging is not so fun for us humans, however, aging for cheese is a treat. In preparing for this interview, I read a lot about affinage, a French word for caring for cheese as it ages. What cheeses are better eaten young versus aged and what care goes into, uh, providing for the cheese as it ages?
Dave Rice: 17:08 Because we make raw milk cheeses, all of our cheeses are aged at least 60 days or longer, and it’s a very labor intensive process to age them that way. Um, the first two weeks after we get them out of the press or out of the brine, somebody has to turn them every day because if you don’t turn the wheel everyday, you’ll end up with it kind of lopsided on one side. And so our youngest daughter’s job for about an hour every day is to go out and turn a different type of cheese every day. So by the end of the week, she has turned all the cheeses in the cellars over on the other side and um, that allows more oxygen to get to the rind, the cheese to age better. And it also ends up with a much nicer product. Any fresh cheeses (fresh soft cheeses) should be eaten right away. And most of them will say on the package that it is a fresh soft cheese. So yeah, anything that’s soft should probably be eaten as soon as possible. A harder aged cheese can, can go for years aging.
Jennifer Dolan: 18:13 And speaking of it going for years, at what point does the daily changing decrease? Like, if I were to purchase an aged cheese, do I have to do anything to it?
Dave Rice: 18:29 If it is in plastic, it’s probably fine just the way it is. If you would get a whole wheel, then you may want to do some sort of affinage, making sure it gets turned and wiping off any molds that would happen to grow on it. And that is also true. If there is mold on your cheese, cut it off and the rest of it is fine to eat.
Jennifer Dolan: 18:52 Okay. Thank you. Some foodies are very interested in preserving food culture and tradition. How important is it to you that traditional methods of cheese making are passed on from generation to generation? And do you think about preserving tradition when you create any of your recipes?
Dave Rice: 19:10 We try to follow the more traditional ways of making cheeses. And the one that we specifically emphasize is the fact that we use real rennet rather than using the genetically modified the product that’s called vegetable rennet. Um, vegetable rennet is okay for short term cheeses. It, it does what it’s supposed to do, but it tends to leave a bitter flavor in the cheese once it starts getting old. And since we do make aged cheeses, we do use real, real veal rennet to make our cheeses. And we do try to stick with the more traditional recipes that, that we can find. And we also play with it a little bit because each recipe has to fit with our system and our…the way we make cheese. So it’s…we try to be as traditional as we can but we also adapt it to, to our, our system and the equipment we have.
Jennifer Dolan: 19:56 So I’ve spoken with a couple of different cheese makers and those who have learned how to make cheese only in the United States have shared with me that the community is so great here and that different farmers and artisans are receptive to sharing their recipes. But if you go into different countries and different cultures, they’re very protective of their recipes. What has your experience been learning how to make cheese?
Dave Rice: 20:29 We found the cheese community just incredible to work with. Um, especially as we were checking into making cheese to begin with, because we went to visit different farmers that made cheese from as far away as Texas through Tennessee, up through Virginia. At that point we tried to visit every person that was making cheese in Pennsylvania and then we also visited a few in New Jersey and New York and went on the Vermont cheese trail, which is a great experience if, if you can ever get to go do that. And I’m not sure whether it’s because they’re farmers or cause or they’re cheese makers, but almost everybody was willing to show us what they were doing, how they did it…um…tell us their bad experiences and their good experiences and were just very willing to share, share their ideas and um, their experience with us and we, we gratefully appreciated that.
Jennifer Dolan: 21:14 That’s great. If you could go anywhere in the world to train with a master cheese maker, where would you go?
Dave Rice: 21:24 I’d love to go… We do make a Gouda or a “how-da” I think it’s supposed to be pronounced, but we would love to go to Amsterdam and see how they, they make it there. And on our way to Africa, we thought about stopping just to see if we could stay. And apparently in the summertime there is a bike trail that you can rent bikes and then bike from farm to farm and see the different places they make Gouda, and we thought that would be really cool to do.
Jennifer Dolan: 21:49 What a great trip.
Dave Rice: 21:50 But the problem is in the summertime we’re doing so many farmer’s markets and making so much cheese we can’t get away.
Jennifer Dolan: 21:55 And the bike scene is crazy in Amsterdam. If you’ve never been there…It’s a whole different world and you could easily get killed on a bicycle if you’re not familiar with the rules.
Dave Rice: 22:02 The other place we’d love to go is New Zealand. And, there we could go…. We are seasonal grass based dairy, so in January and February we don’t milk cows. And so that would be the ideal place to go when it’s summer down there and possibly bike around there and visit cheese plants in New Zealand. But those are the two places we thought about.
Jennifer Dolan: 22:23 Oh you must, you must. And then come back and tell us all about it. Okay. Let’s talk a little bit about storage. At wine bars in the city and in some restaurants, cheese is stored on the bar covered with a cheese cloth or a net of some sort. Is this just for easy service or because cheese tastes better at room temperature? And what is the best way for us to store cheese in our homes?
Dave Rice: 22:55 For food safety sake, it should be stored in a refrigerator for longer periods of time, but it does taste best at room temperature. So you should really bring it out of the refrigerator for about an hour before you eat it because you get much more flavor that way. And you can really taste a difference between a hard cold cheese and something that’s warm and, and, and ready to, to sample. And at that temperature it’s much more tasty.
Jennifer Dolan: 23:20 Okay. And if it has been sitting out for a long time, how do we know when cheese has gone bad? Like … I love stinky cheese, but some people don’t like stinky cheese. When is stinky cheese good stinky versus bad stinky?
Dave Rice: 23:40 I’m not sure I know the answer to that because we’ve had very stinky cheeses too. But a lot of it depends on how it’s been cared for. And once again, the age of it. A younger cheese that’s made as a soft cheese will go bad sooner . Long aged cheeses can go for years. Um, one of the professors that teaches at Juniata College near us, um, he did a summer internship in the mountains of Canada, and he said he actually buried his cheeses in the ground at different places throughout the summer, so as he was hiking around working, he could dig up that cheese and eat it and he said that that was the only way he had to store it. And he was glad he could store it that way and have access to it as he was hiking around the different parts of the mountains. And then the other funny story: one of our neighbors told us that his grandfather loved sharp cheese. So he would have seven plates on top of his cabinets in the kitchen and he would…each day he would slide his cheese down the plates, it would get sharper so that it would just keep getting sharper each day. And so that by the end of the week you would have a very sharp cheese to the pack in his lunch. And so, um, hard cheeses will be fine at about room temperature, um, but a softer cheese should really be be refrigerated.
Jennifer Dolan: 25:02 And…When I was out at your farm, you told me a story about, I think it was something about cheese that had been found hundreds of years later. Do you remember that?
Dave Rice: 25:15 The cheese lovers website tells the story that supposedly found a wheel of cheese in the bogs in England somewhere that they thought was made in the seven, eight, nine hundreds. And so they got it out and scraped all the molds off of it. And I assume they tasted it, but they also gave some to the queen and she said it was the best cheese she ever had. But it was in a cool, moist environment being in a, in a pea bog or something like that. And then the other interesting story that I read…I think it was on that same website, was that supposedly, uh, a boatload of cheese went down during the civil war in the great lakes…a cheddar (in barrels)…and they pulled up many, many, many years later and the cheddar was still as good as it was because once again it was a cool moist environment. And that’s what cheese … aged cheese is like.
Jennifer Dolan: 26:08 All right. So let’s learn a couple of fun things about you guys. After dinner, do you go for the cheese plate or something sweet?
Dave Rice: 26:18 I go for something sweet with a glass of fresh raw milk.
Jennifer Dolan: 26:24 Getting it both in there.
Terry Rice: 26:27 Uh, I, I prefer salty things. So, I would probably go more for, um, some cheese and maybe fruit. an apple or something with some cheese.
Jennifer Dolan: 26:38 Good. When you entertain, what kind of cheese do you serve and what do you serve with your cheese?
Dave Rice: 26:48 Definitely our cheese. But we have…we enjoy exposing people to different cultures. So as we find different things that people serve with cheese, we’ll often do, do, um, things like that. Like we let you guys sample the hot chocolate with the mozzarella cheese in it that our friend from Columbia told us about. It was…we just had that the week before and I was like, wow, this is different. We’re gonna let these people sample this as well as, as we did.
Terry Rice: 27:18 We’ll use cheese in whatever. I love to take salads for meals and I’ll always put some of our cheese in the salad. I, I always do that. But, and we, I mean, we’ll do cheese and crackers until we’re thinking everybody’s tired of cheese and crackers. And then I’ll make hot pizza dip that has all of our cheese in it, or we’ll make dips or whatever. And make soups: cheesy potato soup. We’ve used that a lot. So whatever we make, we always use our cheese in it.
Jennifer Dolan: 27:45 Delicious.
Dave Rice: 27:48 And one of the reasons we decided to make cheese many years ago is that our kids were eating somewhere between five and 10 pounds a week. And we thought…we have the milk…maybe we should start making cheese.
Jennifer Dolan: 28:00 And they still eat that much cheese?
Dave Rice: 28:01 Well there are only two at home right now, so they don’t eat quite as much as we used to when all five were at home.
Jennifer Dolan: 28:06 It’s gotten a little cheaper. Okay. Do you have a favorite cheese book, blog, magazine … any kind of reading material that you would recommend for us to learn more about cheese?
Dave Rice: 28:23 Yeah. Probably one of my favorite is Mastering Artisan Cheesemaking by Gianaclis Caldwell. And that’s the one that we got the idea from to visit Pablo Bottura from. Um, she had a story in there about him, and through her, we were able to connect with him and then go to Argentina. So that’s how that worked out. Um, the other one that I’ve just skimmed through that our son’s reading right now is Reinventing The Wheel: Milk, Microbes, and Fight for Real Cheese by Bronwyn and Francis Percival. That’s um, very good. He said it’s very good. I just…what I skimmed over…it was really good too. Um, the American Cheese Society has a great website, and cheesemaking.com is a great website. Um, some of our favorite podcasts are Cutting the Curd and the Collective Creamery podcast. And I’ve also enjoyed Gastropod and Culture Magazine. And now that we’ve heard about you will have to listen to yours.
Jennifer Dolan: 29:14 So…well thank you so much. In Philadelphia, Clover Creek cheese can be purchased at Metropolitan Bakery. To learn more about Clover Creek Cheese Cellar and where else you can purchase their products, go to their website at www.clovercreekcheese.com. And thank you again Dave and Terry. It was so nice getting to know you.
Dave Rice: 29:40 Thank you.
Terry RIce: 29:42 Thanks.
Jennifer Dolan: 29:44 I hope you enjoyed our chat today. I will include the resources mentioned in the show notes page for today’s episode. You can find that at jennifermdolan.com/podcast. Cheers.
Jennifer M. Dolan is a registered dietitian nutritionist with over three decades of experience in critical care where she developed expertise in metabolism of food. She developed an appreciation for food culture and tradition through her travels and believes that one can experience a sense of place through food. She is the founder and editor in chief of Terroir News which reports news and information on the concept of terroir.